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SORmaker v5.3 wishlist - Things the mod developers we *ACTUALLY* need.

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Post  Don Vecta Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:01 am

This thread might cause some stir probably among developers and even some controversy, but then again, as one of the most active mod developers on the last 10 years and while talking with other old and new mod developers and discussing this several times either in Discord or in some live stream in our respective channels, we have reached some points that most of us agree on.

Just for the record speaking about myself: v5.2 was awful regarding the SORmaker mod development. And the worst offense was simply that made old mods incompatible, most noticeably mods that require data folder and specific palettes. The new location features that pretty much cram everything in the mod folder ruined the set up we've been doing for years. Let's face it: modding in SORmaker has gone long ways since the release of v5.1, SORmaker in v5.1 was an extremely welcome upgrade that opened A LOT of new possibilities for advanced modding, including: dynamic credits, introduction of custom breakables, options of countdown bomb events, removing the stage numbering for multiple location scenes, etc. The list is big, and many of us embraced it quite well. The best of it all is that simpler mods made in v5.0 didn't get affected whatsoever and were still fully playable in 5.1, also considering that when 5.1 was released, the mod development didn't have more than 3 or 4 years, it was still something new and only a handful of complex mods (like H.U.N.T.E.R.) pushed the new features to have what we got in the end. Meanwhile, if you didn't... 99% of the time it would be fine since it didn't screw over compatibility.
Perfect as anyone could ask.

Then modding became more and more complex as we started to discovering, mixing and matching all the features, learning the denoising feature that allowed us to modify characters. Modders like NattyCat, Serrr, Cm_Blast, M. Onyx and many more, started to create more stuff, fixing balance in playable characters or adding some official new ones (like BKM Axel or Blaze), rebalancing and separating colors for better custom paletting (like Zan or Ash in SOR3U mod by Natty Cat, for example), making enemies that were left outside the official SORR roster finally appearing in mods (like Break, Hara-Kiri, Murphy, etc.), playable enemy characters like Abadede or Adam or hell, even developing full new characters like Maz, Kiryu Kazuma and the whole cast of enemies from Streets of Kamurocho. All these years of development took modding to another level... and to be frank we NEVER expected that a v5.2 would come... and an update that pretty much ruined years of hard work.

5.2 is here. It's widescreen so his RNG hyper evasive jank AI has even more space to run around and do bullshit.
It has new input delay. Certain enemies are now even more janked with RNG because developers doesn't like people having strats to route stages and defeat bosses... you know, like in the originals where people make strats.

Just about every complex mod was broken, and needed to be remade for a worse engine despite no actual innovation to Maker. It's ironic that undoing the noise actually was a bad thing since now you just can't run any of the huge overhaul mods that took the most work anymore, and somehow it's actually harder to do data edits now anyway.
When 5.1 happened there was a reason to upgrade, and 5.0 mods weren't ruined.
5.2 gives no reason to upgrade, and ruins 5.1 mods. You see what the issue is now?

A LOT of people have asked us developers when are we going to update our mods for 5.2 and most of us said NEVER. No, I won't go to go back to modify H.U.N.T.E.R., Rushing Beat Remake (which happened to be a template for other complex mods at the 5.1 lifespan), Vendetta, or any of the stuff I've been working over 10 years. I'm NOT going to drop the hard work I've been putting on Streets of Kamurocho with my team and undo ALL THE FUCKING CUSTOM CHARACTERS WE'VE BEEN CREATING just for 5.2. Zarzak won't remake Gangs of Fury, Natty won't be redoing her classic SOR for v5 neither Adam's Story or the incoming Zan's Story to fit in v5.2, M. Onyx WON'T be working in remaking Battle for Rio series just for that. Serrr won't throw away Combatribes and other arcade/console ports to fit on v5.2. We all been working for several years and mods that took even years to develop discovering the v5.1 features. We're not going to redo years of work just to fit on a whimsy update.

Said that already, in case B (or whoever mysterious developer who made 5.2) decides that v5.3 could be a good idea (considering that v5.2 only brought upgrades to the core game only). We have listed some of ACTUAL upgrades we would love to see if they can be included. In the past, I was able to test and put my input to see what could be good stuff for v5.1 and H.U.N.T.E.R. was a template to try the new features, when 5.2 was released, no mod developer was actually consulted. So, considering the lack of communication with the SORR developers and the mod developers, here's the list of some features we need. Mod developers, feel free to add some features, just make sure that can be actually a FEASABLE upgrade that won't take hoops to be done.

  • 8 extra custom enemy slots - new enemy slots so they don't need noise, encouraging swaps. Throw in maybe 2 slots for playable characters as well. Development of playable characters have been an artform in the last couple of years.
  • Adding the new intros and actions added on v5.2, like Donovan throwing molotovs, for instance.
  • Individual AI on enemies to remove certain attacks or modify damage. This is important as some boss characters could behave differently when they're treated as regular enemies. Also important for custom enemies that could behave slightly differently either easier or more difficult.
  • At least 20 breakables and 20 items slots. Breakables have became also part of stage development and are part of the props like broken backgrounds, doors, etc.
  • Breakable items should be able to have modified health bars. Breakables have a one HP while the walls have fixed HP. This will add certain creative features in future mods... like bonus stages a-la Street fighter or slightly more realistic approach (like... a phone booth or a fixed steel hydrant could take several hits to be destroyed over a trash can, right?)
  • The wind and snow event could have the wind blowing in one selectable direction (just like the conveyor belts that can be fixed to be set from left to right and viceversa).
  • New conveyor belts moving upwards or downwards (like Dr. Dahm's fight in the original SOR3).
  • Freeform vertical infinite scrolling that won't change the stage into an elevator. There's SEVERAL applications that actually need freeform vertical scrolling.
  • One railed Train event. Just like in the ninja tunnel in SOR3. This hazard can actually be extremely useful for a lot of creative applications. also with possibility to flip the sprites in a right-to-left angle.
  • Diagonal scrolling. Just like the elevator stage in SOR3 or the Expander elevator in SOR2.
  • Allowing a down-to-up free from scrolling for ascending stages. We're stuck with and up-to-down scroll that gets locked as soon the players reach the bottom of the map. We've discovered a way to do a sort of vertical freeroam by putting boundaries in the collision map that prevent the player to lock the bottom and then be able to go up again. We'd love to have an option to start from the bottom and going up.
  • An option that allows floor to scroll slowly to a certain direction, like being pushed by a strong wind or simulate being atop of a moving vehicle. Zarzak developed a technique to create this effect by setting conveyor belts below a -10 layer. If this feature could be added as a stand alone event combined with the wind, we really can do wonders with that.
  • Do NOT cramp everything inside the mod folder. The engine feat to put together in a mod folder came too little too late. Let us keep working on the data folder and the custom palette feature (try to consider the utilities that Xenovant made for SORR as official tools or the development that Daniel has been doing with his mod manager) so old mods DON'T GET OUTDATED! Our modding community is still niche but it's been the backbone that has kept the game highly relevant in the last 10 years. Let us keep using the data folder and the custom palettes as we know them now.


By now these are some of the features we actually need. If other modders want to add other features we need, please do so. In the end, if v5.3 ever gets released at least they know what do we really want.

Thank you for reading.

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Post  SORDave Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:43 pm

I fully support this idea of yours Don Thumbs up

Not to mention more unused Beta stuff from the original SOR trilogy & perhaps more.

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Post  E.Signal Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:55 pm

As a regular player, I 100% agree on this. I hoping for more AI editor options in a 5.3 like someone mentioned in another topic. An option to set the AI to behave like they did in the original games. This would fix all the problems with the jank AI and make mods a lot more enjoyable to play.
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Post  SORDave Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:19 pm

Let's hope they listen?

They are so many things that can be added to a potential 5.3

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Post  Iceferno Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:24 pm

The only suggestion I can think of is increasing the Stage count to 12 for a SOR4 demake. lol

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Post  SORDave Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:29 pm

That could leave more possible options for stages for the SORMaker lol

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Post  Herb1e Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:32 pm

Yes, I completely agree with this. Streets of Rage Remake is a game made BY the fans FOR the fans. There is definitely going to be a problem when they completely ignore the thing that is keeping the community alive. (SORMaker)

They really needed to consult with the community before 5.2 was made. Now, instead of a proper update with new SORMaker features, we got a bunch of things that nobody asked for. I mean who asked for balanced damage or achievements?

And the fact that old mods with data folders are now incompatible is the worst issue in my eyes. Why couldn't they make it so noised fpgs still work with SORR? Anyways, I think that it says something that so many people in the community (myself included) have switched back to 5.1.

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Post  SORDave Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:37 pm

Agreed.

there still aton of stuff they can still add & improve stuff.

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Post  Mr.Din Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:31 pm

I agree with the points above. The fact that very little instructions were left on what to do with this stuff only makes it worse. In addition to the above points I think we need a compatibility mode for previous customs and mods. Another thing that would be nice is having a borderless window mode that allows the original resolution maybe with some remake artwork on the sides. Currently the only way to play in the original resolution is to revert to the janky window set up from previous versions that basically reverse the fixes that came with the widescreen feature.

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Post  SORDave Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:34 am

If it dosen't happen,we can always create tools for v5.1 because I doubt they'll listen

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Post  Diavoletto Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:15 am

for me it's important adding support for fireball for any characters and slots for new moves.
I would to give "reppuken" to my geese for example.
Some free slots for new characters

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Post  SpideyKeiiti Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:17 pm

I really liked the fact of don't need to use that disgrace of noise / denoiser thing on 5.2, being more friendly for newcomers. As Din said, would be cool to make noised FPG's from 5.1 SOR Maker creations compatible.

I see that no one listed here, but I would like more possibilities for change voices, for example:

Blaze cry is the same from the other female characters / enemies, would be nice to each enemy got your own individual voices (Even if they're the same in the original titles)

I would like to add more Sor4 Adam voices in SorR and for the moment he got only 2 voices (As it was on original game), so why don't add more adam voice files with his same attack voice, but for each move (Flying kick, special) that can be replaced? And the same could be done for Max too.

Maybe it was done simple because BennuGD don't support multiple sounds being played, loaded at the same time, but if theres possibility, why not?

Don Vecta wrote:fixing balance in playable characters
About that, you mean those control points that got invisible hitbox? Neutral In this case I think is possible to add then again on 5.2 by just getting all .CPT files from 5.1 FPG's

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Post  bareknuckleroo Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:14 am

I disagree with the claims about 5.2 AI; it doesn't feel that much tougher, and Mania is still manageable. I'm fine either way though. Widescreen however is a big change that directly affects gameplay and, along with the other changes, impacts mod compatibility. Probably there was some kind of demand for widescreen because there's the expectation all modern remakes are widescreen now? It doesn't feel necessary to change from the game's original 4:3 aspect ratio other than that it looks pretty by removing black borders I guess. But just because widescreen monitors are the norm now doesn't mean all games need to be widescreen.

The really nice thing about widescreen is it supports higher scaling up to x3 Scale, so if playing windowed when streaming/recording, it's nice to have... but really, having x3 Scale or x4 Scale as an option for 4:3 aspect ratio would be the solution

Elle's nerfing in 5.2 ruins her balance. As discussed elsewhere, the "Balanced" damage setting isn't balanced at all.

Our modding community is still niche but it's been the backbone that has kept the game highly relevant in the last 10 years. Let us keep using the data folder and the custom palettes as we know them now.

I'm torn about this one. Mods have become a huge part of the game. I'm not saying you can please everyone with new major developer updates, but before major compatibility changes are introduced developers should probably communicate better with the community. However, mods really should have all their files within the mod folder itself and not require messing with or overwriting the game's base files. It's a shame that it wasn't designed this way to begin with, but surely there's a solution that will allow stuff like custom palettes to work this way with older mods without needing too much retooling? Something like an official mod manager that supports messing with the game in more advanced ways modders want perhaps.

The problem of course is because they're afraid of a Sega lawsuit, nobody knows who's doing the updates, so there's a lack of communication between the developer and the community. But it's clear that aside from the bugfixes, 5.2 was not received well by the community veterans, and that 5.1 was seen as a good "final" build version.

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Post  Don Vecta Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:34 am

bareknuckleroo wrote:However, mods really should have all their files within the mod folder itself and not require messing with or overwriting the game's base files. It's a shame that it wasn't designed this way to begin with, but surely there's a solution that will allow stuff like custom palettes to work this way with older mods without needing too much retooling? Something like an official mod manager that supports messing with the game in more advanced ways modders want perhaps

We're getting back to the original point: without the data and the custom palettes as they are now, advanced mods for 5.1 are UNPLAYABLE! 10 YEARS OF WORK THAT WOULD BE WORTH SPIT! Those mods were built over a data folder and a custom palette folder. If you change that, that's EXACTLY what's been happening on 5.2: mods broken with half features gone! Besides, the data folder doesn't overwrite anything. The palettes can be managed by a manager like Daniel's or Xenovant without affecting anything.
Besides, what's the point of the color/name editor then?

The thing is, modders were the ones who advanced in development during these 10 years. Too late to cram everything on the mod folder. If this feature was introduced at least 5 or 6 years ago, it would have been easier to transition. Once, most modders will NOT remake everything to make our mods fit in an update that didn't bring anything on the table but more problems.

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Post  Charco Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:11 am

There will not be a 5.3 version.

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Post  E253MechaShadow Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:56 am

Charco wrote:There will not be a 5.3 version.
So we thought of 5.2, it literally came out of nowhere.
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Post  Mr.Din Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:27 pm

v6 confirmed. 😏

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Post  SORDave Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:04 pm

Are you sure about that,Din? XD

Because I don't think that'll happen. XD

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Post  Don Vecta Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:38 am

Charco wrote:There will not be a 5.3 version.
Figured as much. Oh well, guess we all gotta stick with 5.1 then cuz rest fucking assured I ain't touching 5.2 for modding.

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Post  SORDave Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:41 am

Same here,we could make tools for modding

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Post  Mr.Din Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:53 am

SORDave wrote:Are you sure about that,Din? XD

Because I don't think that'll happen. XD

My uncle owns SEGA it'll be an official release on all platforms in 2041

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Post  SORDave Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:57 am

I don't believe that,because I know your joking.

Hmmm,hey Herb1e what do you think?

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Post  Herb1e Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:02 am

SORDave wrote:I don't believe that,because I know your joking.

Hmmm,hey Herb1e what do you think?
I just hope they dont release 5.2 lol

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Post  SORDave Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:08 am

Lol true

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Post  bareknuckleroo Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:12 am

Don Vecta wrote:Once, most modders will NOT remake everything to make our mods fit in an update that didn't bring anything on the table but more problems.

While I know 5.2's changes to modding are... not well received, some of the stuff in 5.2 is really appreciated and I don't think it's fair to say everything about it's bad. The various bugfixes, the added i-frames on rolling, defaulting to SoR3 roll type, adding the pipe to the Mr. X fight in SoR1 route, Roo hitting in front of him when he back attacks just like SoR3. There's a lot of little tweaks that are really appreciated. One thing I really like is that SoRR v5.2 no longer occasionally misreads 3 Star Blitz inputs with back -> forward in them as 1 Star (forward, forward) inputs. This means you can reliably use command inputs to do Roo and Skate's 3 Star Blitzes without risking them using the 1 Star unintentionally.

There's really only a few changes that hit wrong notes for me. The water fountain scene's forced jumping feel weirdly out of place in an official route level (the new island in the jetski scene is cool though). The addition of widescreen as an option is nice, but will now result in demands that modders go back and add support. Popularity for mods will probably be determined in large part by widescreen compatibility. The new "balanced" damage setting option was unnecessary, and Elle's nerfs are arguably the worst element of 5.2 (she's unnecessarily weak for a fairly slow character whereas she felt pretty damn fun in 5.1). Max's 2 star blitz being fully invulnerable was a bit silly, but the reduced range on it makes it go from OP to rather ineffective compared to his slide, so not sure how I feel about that.

On the whole I think 5.2 is a decent update, but obviously one that's polarizing for the modding side of the community. I'll probably keep 5.2 around for playing the main game routes, and use 5.1 for mods. I honestly haven't played with any mods that require messing with the main game data to get the most out of them, but keeping 5.1 around for those is an option.

E253MechaShadow wrote:So we thought of 5.2, it literally came out of nowhere.

This. Give us 5.1 Elle back, address modders' concerns, and honestly 5.2a/5.3 would be a really nice update.

Other stuff's yet to be addressed too. The time limits in the SoR2 factory stage's elevator section don't give time refills as they should, and SoR3 Skate's 2 and 3 star blitzes have still aren't as good as in SoR3 due to having more limited speed control and not being able to move at a nearly vertical diagonal.


Last edited by bareknuckleroo on Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:21 am; edited 1 time in total

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