What would you have added if you could mod the game.

celestinx wrote:mod exclusive enemies??

It would be great if new enemies were available for other SORmaker fans.. For example allowing max as a boss would be cool even if not story related, that would make a fun fight. Or making the playable version of Elle a sub-boss. Is someone is working on such things that would be friggin awesome

Yes, though I wouldn't go as far as to say stuff like elle or max being enemies is completely feasible. Keep in mind this is still the work of file swapping/editing and honestly I like it this way, the limitations keep the game feeling like SoR but gives so much space to get creative with. If you check my thread in the demo/experiments section you'll see I've started on a new signal variation.

Okay, guys... cool down. I guess the topic can be followed without getting any animosity going on.

I'm gonna be here the devil's advocate, trying to explain the side of the modder community, but also trying to understand the concerns of the devs or the people involved.
The Russian breakdown of v5.1 appeared. Nothing we could do about it.

Now, what most modders of the community are doing? Trying to use this discovery AT ITS VERY BEST! Boy, there's some lovely features we can add to mods: custom fonts, custom consumable items with their respective portrait, lifebars and stuff. Hell, even certain custom enemies, or proper fixes that went unattended, too.

Now, what's the catch of it all? Ain't really easy to mod to have the best results: tweaking with control points is not easy, not messing palettes ain't easy. Hell, even changing fonts and not adjusting control points make the whole work messy.

Bottomline: not any moron with crappy ideas can have proper results, cuz, as everything, with good work and dedication, a mod can be perfect.

The modding community is definitely NOT intended to trample, steal or minimize the work of Bombergames. To be honest, quite the opposite: we try to keep the longevity of SORmaker by offering a more immersive set of mods available to play. I mean, we're taking lots of our time to still put effort in mods for the game. In fact, we've refrained to make completely public many aspects found in the Russian groups because we'd rather get an okay from B (well, they still can get the broken-down stuff there, but trying to make good usage of it with proper tutorials, guidelines and whatnot... hehe, they're welcome to try. And it's not easy).

So, at least me speaking for the crew of modders we're still involved in the scene, I'm safe to say: don't worry. We don't want to, and we never will harm Bombergames' efforts with our mods. We also have our own talents and efforts, too... and yeah, we're afraid to see our custom stages, enemies, items and other things we also made from scratch in ridiculous mods like that disrespectful asshole Allan whatever-his-name-is who couldn't even regard the material that wasn't even his and even antagonize us.

...but unfortunately, that's something we can't do about it. Cuz that will inevitably will happen.

However, what's the beauty of it all? Any person who knows their BTU's know where the original work comes from, where the quality comes from... and they'll rather play and enjoy the good stuff than the crap stuff. Perhaps that's the fact that let's me sleep at night.

So, don't fret out, guys, we ARE still on your side. We are still supporting and loving SORR by offering something more complete and more dynamic.


BTW, I did my job to clean the mess here. Had to edit and delete the bad blood coming up here. As I said, all these subjects can be addressed without getting angry. As I said, we're on the same side all.

Personally the only thing in V5 already that I'd swap out for something else would be the arcade cabinets I made. B used early versions of the Golden Axe and Excite QTE ones, the former was lacking a piece of detail and the latter was later modified so that it resembled the machine seen in Shenmue. There was also a little error with the Bonanza Bros artwork that I later fixed, but that one isn't as noticable.

There was also a Moonwalker one, intended to replace the JPM fruit machine lookalike.

Xillatem wrote:Personally the only thing in V5 already that I'd swap out for something else would be the arcade cabinets I made. B used early versions of the Golden Axe and Excite QTE ones, the former was lacking a piece of detail and the latter was later modified so that it resembled the machine seen in Shenmue.  There was also a little error with the Bonanza Bros artwork that I later fixed, but that one isn't as noticable.

There was also a Moonwalker one, intended to replace the JPM fruit machine lookalike.

Way to fuck up Xilla man, shit

*flips a table and leaves the room*

Criss wrote:

Xillatem wrote:Personally the only thing in V5 already that I'd swap out for something else would be the arcade cabinets I made. B used early versions of the Golden Axe and Excite QTE ones, the former was lacking a piece of detail and the latter was later modified so that it resembled the machine seen in Shenmue.  There was also a little error with the Bonanza Bros artwork that I later fixed, but that one isn't as noticable.

There was also a Moonwalker one, intended to replace the JPM fruit machine lookalike.

Way to fuck up Xilla man, shit

*flips a table and leaves the room*

That's the latest one I could find, there was another later one with the actual Golden Axe itself on the Golden Axe machine

If we could find a way to repack the data we could get the best of both worlds. patching this stuff in without worry of the main game assets being touched.

I just want to be able to add more characters.

SORmaker needs upwards/downwards conveyors. Besides recreating Dr. Dahm's lab, it could be useful for other kind of battles or situations... like recreating a landslide or being sucked in an opened window out of a helicopter, for example.

And needs linear laser traps (horizontal and vertical) to recreate the SOR3 ceiling traps or the floor moving trap or Dr. Dahm's electric hazard.

Even if it's unstable if not used properly, it should be on us to use it properly.

I'd definitely love more flexibility with what can be put in Maker. Being stuck using Fire Traps for defining damage zones feels a bit brute force.

If V5 was moddable, my to do list would be ... pretty humble, actually.

Alt costumes for all the characters to reflect the EU/Pal boxart (see left )

Also, I'd have given SOR1-style Mona and Lisa their kabuki/bun hairdos from the SMS version.

Yeah, I'm big into sprite edits

scalliano wrote:If V5 was moddable, my to do list would be ... pretty humble, actually.

Alt costumes for all the characters to reflect the EU/Pal boxart (see left )

Also, I'd have given SOR1-style Mona and Lisa their kabuki/bun hairdos from the SMS version.

Yeah, I'm big into sprite edits

The tools aren't posted on the forums. It's difficult to really see how to proceed or if to on this site with them, but those things are possible now, even if it involves an excessive level of effort (for replacing a player character you would chug down, at the very least, a month if you were trying to make a fully functional and palettable file).

I personally need to update my Bare Knuckle Mobile Blaze (and put in Axel2's "new pants" BKM sprites to go with her for release) to maximum quality when I'm done with all the other crap on my plate.
Her default palette is wrong and lower depth than it could be, and her bike sprites were just rushed edits of the v5.0 ones that were apparently updated in v5.1. I was so close to getting her as a playable beta I didn't even care about the missing pixels on the hands in those sprites... XD

scalliano wrote:If V5 was moddable, my to do list would be ... pretty humble, actually.

Alt costumes for all the characters to reflect the EU/Pal boxart (see left )

Also, I'd have given SOR1-style Mona and Lisa their kabuki/bun hairdos from the SMS version.

Yeah, I'm big into sprite edits

I actually would have preferred Onihime and Yasha have their buns from the sms version myself. Could be a nice little edit for me to do for the SoR3 twins sometime later on my SoR1 pack. Axel could be a simple as a palette swap if edited accordingly. As for modding these things, I may do a tutorial sometime in the future, it's nothing simple but if you know what to do it'll be the same as putting sound files in the data folder.

Two new idea's I have.

A new series of weapon types could consist of moveable weapons which can be used while moving.  The consist of the Sai, Nunchaku, two Kama's, and two butterfly swords.  The Sai's and Nunchaku's are used by Haku-Oh, while the Kama's and butterfly swords are used by Tiger and Hakuyo.


Some shotguns will come with an attached bayonet which the player can press the jump button to stab an enemy and fire the gun while he's stabbed causing triple damage.

Update:
Firearms can be fired while moving which will make hitting enemies much easier(I sometimes have trouble hitting enemies with firearms).

Add a double barrel shotgun which fires two separate shots, but can be reloaded 3 times and while moving.

1) Online play! Seriously, this is the ONE AND ONLY thing this masterpiece lacks!
2) A last secret character... The trash-can-cat! That black monster that meows and runs in various stages of the game! This NEEDS to become a new, secret player, BADLY!

Don Vecta wrote:There's small kinks in SORmaker that could be somehow useful if we had options.

• The Wall breakable item should be able to modify it's "health" bar so we can put different ones like in the original SOR3.
  
• Overall breakable items should have custom lifebar.
  
• The trolley trap should be able to contain items inside, like the bottle in SOR1/SORR.
  
• Modify the behavior and pattern of the railway cart from the Happy Paradise tunnel (at least able to use one rail or two rails).
  
• Able to modify the duration of the Sniper event. Either to add more shots or to be able to add it again further in the scene, not only once.
  
• Able to custom the enemies appearing inside the Shutter event. Not only the default Galsia, G-1 and Nora.
  
• Able to modify the Wind behavior from a permanent left to right, right to left or oscillatory as it is now.
  
• More space for items/breakables. 10 each are just not enough sometimes.
  
• Add Dr. Dahm's Crane as part of the Events, modifiable in health, pattern and whatnot.
  
• Add a new vertical scroll conveyor to simulate Dahm's electric trap.
  
• Add the electric trap option in SORmaker (wouldn't you like an electrified ring, for example?)
  
• Able to modify the type of weapon inside any breakable item (Army Knives, P. Knives, Katanas, Kusanagis, etc.)
  
• A lot more damage in the bottle break attack (remember Vendetta?). The stab could have the same damage as the knife.
  
• Being able to reload weapons with ammo dropped by gun wielding enemies (Suits, Slash, X, Robo X). This way the peashooter would be less useless.
  
• Make the Shotgun available!
  
• Please, that stupid hitbox on fallen bikes was the most stupid feature added on v5.1. GET RID OF IT!
  

I guess these are some of the features I'd like to have tweaked for more SORmaker options.

I remember that Bomberlink was originally panning on adding a shotgun in the final version.  Never understood why the concept was dropped.  My only guess was because of the incident with Minimario spamming the forums so he could make his own post.  He made some sort of post called:"Ideas they could use for the next version." most of which were just terrible for the sake of attracting attention.  One of his idea's was to make a new enemy that rips off the shotgunners from Vendetta.  I figure that shotguns give Bomberlink bad memories of minimario, which might have been why the idea was dropped in the end.  Otherwise, it might have been coding issues or something like that.

Hah! I just thought to myself "why IS the shotgun from Cadillacs & Dinosaurs not in there?" less than 20 minutes ago. Glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed. And now that I think of it, where's the assault rifle? I want to smack enemies with the rifle butt after the bullets run out!

What I would like to see in the game is:
- The ability to copy enemy types and then change their parameters individually. So you can get different variants of the same basic enemy that will evade instead of countering, or move a lot faster/differently.

But there's SO MUCH MORE you could do with this...:

- SORmaker usable on Linux. Perty plz.
- Put the palettes in a user writeable folder on the Linux port, instead of symlinking the /home/USERNAME/.sorr/palettes/ folder to /opt/sorr/palettes which is only writeable by the root user. It makes switching out palettes a major pain in the ass on Linux.  
- Ability to swap palette folder sets through in-game main menu.  
- Ability to just supply palette and other data folders (soundpacks, character select screen, other customized stuff) within a mod's main folder and have it readable from there instead of having to do lots of renaming and shuffling files around. This would also make it less of a hassle for the average gamer to set up and play the more ambitious, technical projects that have been realized or are currently being worked on very hard by some very talented people folks on this forum. Bonus: should also work better for playing on other platforms/ports/devices where one might not have a full fledged desktop OS style file manager handy.

- Let me set enemy grab range and priority.
- Let me special out of all enemy grabs (MonaLisa suplex, Shiva, Abadede...) by giving me a slightly larger escape window. Or let me adjust that window myself, even better.

- Boost Skate3 and Axel3 damage output slightly.
- Boost Axel2 damage output very slightly. Not as much as the 2 above.

- Shiva throwing SoR3/SoR1 fatties just doesn't seem right to me. And he has the back grabbing slam throw anyway.

- If you ask me Zan should be able to throw SoR3 fatties. But he's already an excellent character with a strong grab game (especially true since 5.1) so he doesn't really need it. He's supposed to be very strong, though, and when a SoR3 Bongo suckers me into trying to shoulder throw him and Zan gets smushed it just breaks my cyborg-loving heart.

- Speaking of throwing SoR3 fatties, Mr. X really should be able to. I mean LOOK AT THE GUY, he's huge! And he throws everyone else over his shoulder like they are leaves in the wind.
Think about it, he's all about the hit-and-run keep-your-enemies-off-your-back sleazy opportunistic playstyle since he can't use his offensive special against big groups for huge damage like many other characters. And the SoR3 fatties really mess with that by getting grabbed by accident and then you either have to vault-kick away or back off which leaves you super vulnerable.

- Add a clear explanation of AI editor parameters and what the difference with the "Remake" default settings is. Right now I have no idea, for example, what the default blocking frequency value is. The scale goes from the word "Remake" to the numbers 1-8. Is "Remake" equivalent to 9? 10? 5.5? pi? 1? Something else entirely? And WTF is the actual difference "counter, evade, ignore harmful" etc make?

- And now that we're on the subject, let me pick an option that applies the AI editor's changes to ALL game modes. So the main game, SORmaker AND survival mode at the same time. Heck, even the boss rush... I would have no problem with not getting any medals if playing boss rush with AI editor settings modified.

- But I think only getting store cash from boss rush completions only once is B.S. Just give me less points, but not ZERO. Maybe have each boss drop an increasingly valuable item as the number of rounds goes up, and cash those out after winning or losing, like in the main game.

- I would LOVE the ability to set a custom boss rush from in-game and being able to export it to a shareable file. Put your friends through the wringer. Set # of rounds, # of bosses/enemies, using either the beach or arena stages from the boss mode. Keep track of each rush file's top ten high scores.

- Let me test out settings changes from the game's main menu tree, quickly. Controls, misc settings, game settings, AI editor settings, name/palette modifications.
Like this:

Clicky for example!:

- PLEASE let me change keyboard/controller mappings from the pause screen in all game modes. Seriously!!!

- Savestating a mod with another human player and then playing a different one by myself I suddenly find that both characters from the mod's save slot are present in the same scene number in a different mod! WTF! Playing Gangs of Fury co-op until level 3, then I load up V4 Remake for a solo run and I'm dropped in the amusement park level with the same 2 characters?! Wut.

What do you guys think? I really put some thought into the above and how all this would mesh with the game as it stands now. Especially from a user-friendliness standpoint and with an eye on encouraging experimentation/discovery.

Considering that modding is becoming more complex and now we're focusing in more details to make a unique experience, the AI behavior per mook is definitely a must have. In fact, it's been already implemented but only in few mooks (look at Galsia-1 or the Hakus, where you can set them in aggressive, coward, evasive, etc.) or with different behavior depending the name chosen (i.e.: the judos: Yasha, Onihime in the 1st and 2nd slot with exclusive behavior and the 3rd name onwards a simpler one).

If we could be able to have different patterns with options per enemy, the options to create more sophisticated and powerful enemies or lazier, weaker ones would broaden the option of using certain basic enemies as bosses with full potential AI (say, a Fog in a completely aggressive behavior) or dumb-down certain enemies that in boss version are final boss level (fuck you, Abadede!) but could be used as mid-bosses or medium to high level mooks in the level (again, using Abadede as example, his BKM version, which is stupidly easier and behaving like a high rank mook).

Squid's options are more intricate but could work for more advanced tweaking. This can work for modders who want to set custom enemies (with custom I don't mean in appearance... though that could be done with the fpg edition, but with personal behavior). If programming different behaviors to every mook is too complicated, make just two or three versions (like Galsia-1, Haku or the judos) could suffice, I think.

Don Vecta wrote:Considering that modding is becoming more complex and now we're focusing in more details to make a unique experience, the AI behavior per mook is definitely a must have. In fact, it's been already implemented but only in few mooks (look at Galsia-1 or the Hakus, where you can set them in aggressive, coward, evasive, etc.) or with different behavior depending the name chosen (i.e.: the judos: Yasha, Onihime in the 1st and 2nd slot with exclusive behavior and the 3rd name onwards a simpler one).

If we could be able to have different patterns with options per enemy, the options to create more sophisticated and powerful enemies or lazier, weaker ones would broaden the option of using certain basic enemies as bosses with full potential AI (say, a Fog in a completely aggressive behavior) or dumb-down certain enemies that in boss version are final boss level (fuck you, Abadede!) but could be used as mid-bosses or medium to high level mooks in the level (again, using Abadede as example, his BKM version, which is stupidly easier and behaving like a high rank mook).

Squid's options are more intricate but could work for more advanced tweaking. This can work for modders who want to set custom enemies (with custom I don't mean in appearance... though that could be done with the fpg edition, but with personal behavior). If programming different behaviors to every mook is too complicated, make just two or three versions (like Galsia-1, Haku or the judos) could suffice, I think.

Even just the ability to set BOSS or non boss behavior would've been helpful. I think what balanced out SoR2 (as balanced as it could get) was the fact that boss characters later down the line weren't invincible on wake up, had a bit of change in AI etc, this is something SoRR specifically missed even in the main game. You're supposed to feel as though you can mop the floor with the previously encountered boss/mid boss character when coming in contact with them again.

Hey guys, thanks for reading through it. Took me a while to type out because it kept getting longer as I was brainstorming. Good points made, and I got some useful information out of your posts too about the subtleties built into the original games' and the remake's AI. Don's suggestion for a basic implementation of enemy variants is elegant and I definitely like it. A lot.

On this note, currently the BOSS flag in Maker only raises raw enemy speed and aggression (though in Shiva's case you'd never notice since his base values for these are already through the roof).

Changing this to restrict AI patterns/I-frames/grab priority of boss-type enemies, unless they're explicitly set as BOSS, would revolutionise the way V5 works, while also having an idiot-proof effect regarding certain modders who don't understand how to build mook structures...

Meanwhile, non-boss enemies with the BOSS flag on could get an extra/upgraded move that they can resort to, widening the boss-pool for a lot of modders. Very very few people can make a Galsia boss and get away with it... raising it to just few could help improve the depth of mod boss fights.

Agree 100% with all of that, Caj. And it could likely be implemented without breaking backwards compatibility with existing mods, with some planning.

(I had to grin at the "Get away with a Galsia boss" bit so true)

WillyTheSquid wrote:Agree 100% with all of that, Caj. And it could likely be implemented without breaking backwards compatibility with existing mods, with some planning.

(I had to grin at the "Get away with a Galsia boss" bit so true)

I did. In H.U.N.T.E.R.

Some mooks could be potentially great bosses storywise if they had one or two features up, like invincibility frames on wake up, block, damage resistance, higher hitbox on certain attacks, damage, you name it.

Say, a Fog, appointed as president of a bike gang chapter, could be a horrible pain in the ass with the same aggressive settings he already has (natural 3-hit combo, spine straight punch, speed in movement), now with only 3 frames on invincibility on wake up, he could be a great stage 1 or 2 boss alongside other bikers as helpers.

A boss Galsia, with the simple one frame jabs he has.... just multiply his damage and get him the right entourage and he's gonna make you cringe!

A Cody with invincibility frames and making his jab jab upper a natural combo will be frustrating considering he's freaking fast (probably one of the fastest enemies in the roster).

A higher level Ash with just adding his basic rush combo from his playable version will make him extremely more effective than just being a grappler only. And with 2 frames of invincibility frames on wake up will be a force to recoked with. Stage 2 or 3 material boss.

A higher damage Roo with invincibility frames and he's gonna take you for a ride. Stage 5 or 6 level boss easily.


By the other hand, bosses dumbed down could work greatly: a Zamza without block and less damage could be a mid-boss level without posing a huge threat. A Barbon with less block ratio and no invincibility frames could play a muscle mook character that the game needs (On a side note, there's a huge lack of muscle bound thugs in SORR a-la Andore, Arnold, Gigante, Abobo, O'Hara, etc., only Ash could fill the role sometimes, and other big burly dudes are too tough to be considered muscle mooks: Barbon blocks like crazy and he plays ridiculously defensive, Abadede... well... ).

Yes Don Vecta, I'm sure Caj was referring to that memorable Galsia boss encounter

Fun ideas so far, I can definitely see those working. I am happy to read someone else also appreciates the idea of enemies getting the option for a 'natural combo' (I like that term!)
I mentioned before some ideas for adjusting enemy jumping mechanics, and I forgot a super obvious one... a diagonal jumping/jump attacking toggle. Would make for some fun twists on SoR1/2 fat guys, SoR2/3 Haku/Phoenix, ninjas, SoR3 Galsia, Nora/Electra...

A duo of boosted Bruce or juggler-type enemies with higher aggressiveness/attack speed and some invincibility frames on recovery from knockdown. Add some other enemies to distract and interfere, and give the duo the ability to make fast & low jumps to move around fast... they can set up attacks from afar from both sides. Could be used as a boss fight.

That Zamza-light idea also seemed a natural fit to me, by himself he's not much of a threat but with his blocking and grabbing he's too dangerous to let run around like a mook.

Barbon: it never really occcured to me that SoR didn't have enough big bruiser enemies, but you are very right. Reading those Rival Turf/Rushing Beat enemy names in there made me smile a bit, that was the first beat 'em up I played as a kid (I don't count Double Dragon 3, because after you get to the platforming sections it is NOT a beat 'em up).
Anyway, Barbon could definitely fill that role. And so could SoR1 Bongo if he loses/tones down the fire strafe and gets a Rival Turf fatguy style drop attack. Jump up high and slam down at player's location.

Jet, if you could disable his grab attack, would be SO much more fair when he's used in multiples.

EDIT: just thought of something else... the SoR1/2/3 punkers can all slide and grab the player for a throw. How about a souped up combo that consists of a quick slide into a grab-and-throw, like Max can do. That could be interesting.