Re: General Character Discussion

**Charco** Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:13 pm

I have to agree with serp, this whole discussion is ridiculous in my opinion.

Guest Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:48 pm

Holy crap that wasn't necessary. Yeah tiers are silly for this game, but no need to trash talk the concept of modding in this game Serp. It's at the core of Remake's survival and replayability.

I don't know if I'd even have played this for as long without the tools available. It's a limited scope game on its own, Godly ranked beside what it's in homage to, but that doesn't make infinite replay value.

Wow Farmville though. Totally unnecessary to go that low.

**Don Vecta** Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:59 pm

serp wrote:It is patently absurd to claim changes to the game conditions don't change a tier list.

Might as well tier SFII Rainbow Edition with WW. Why not? It's just a mod right?

No. That's a HACK. Unofficial from Capcom. HUGE DIFFERENCE. That broken Rainbow Edition was the cause that allowed Capcom to create Street Fighter 2 Turbo, actually.

But not derailing the topic, and by disagreeing with your view, what we do in modding is to push the limitations the tool has and set the characters in every possible situation we players and creators can do WITHIN AN OFFICIAL GAME RULES! We are NOT hacking the behavior, neither changing hitboxes, AI, values, etc. what we do is presenting scenarios that are allowed to be done to analyze the characters.

Besides, if it wasn't for modding, this project wouldn't have more than 7 years of REPLAY VALUE, no matter how awesome the core game is. We live in 2015! We're in an awful era of gaming, with arcades dead, mobile social games, FPS's and freeroams in overpriced consoles, "digital" games that you DON'T REALLY OWN, paid DLC's in discs, etc. The interest in BTU's and retrogaming is only for a niche group... and the SORR is very small itself. Don't play mods and I'm sure these forums would be collecting dust.

We're basically here (most of us) for the breathe of new air v5.1 brought to the modding community. That's the reality.

Mr.Din Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:58 pm

I don't like the idea of including mods because not everyone takes the time and effort to balance and properly test their mods like you guys do. HUNTER, Adam's Story, Path of the Shadow etc are mods I'd consider worthy of possibly effecting the tiers but not every modder is going to take the time to balance their mod. Even good mods can fall under unfair conditions because of lack of play testing.

BigDarsh Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:09 am

That's so sad, first we have Serp who ask for a tiers list (which is a bit out of place, but still interresting) and then we have Serp who trash the mod tool as a small hacking feature release by a random guy.

This random guy is called BomberLink, a clever game designer who put many years of his life to make the best Streets of Rage ever to be made. A clever game designer that know that every game start to get old with time. So Bomberlink put a tool that permit to create new situations for his game in order to keep it fresh, and to permit to the community to have a decent life span.

That's why SoRMaker is limited, it's not because Bomberlink is narrowminded and want to trash the modders, but because he want that SoRMaker stay what it is : a life expander but not a hacking tool.

Why are there two modders that discuss the general strategy thread currently ? (Don Vecta and CajNatalie ). Because they care of the general strategy of the game while they make their mod, they care because they understand what is the very purpose of SoRMaker. Create new situations for Bomberlink's game, and not creating a new beat them up from the scratch.

A hacker just don't care about the game he rape, since he rape it to make something else.

That's why Mr Din says that some mods can be counted for the tiers list, they are mod of modders that care about this fucking game !

Modders that don't care about "BomberLink's SoRR general strategy" just don't understand what is SoRMaker and why BomberLink created it. They will try to make their own game and will complain that SoRMaker is limited since they think in the opposite way.

SoRMaker's philosophy
"Understand SoRR => make mod that highlight the game"
Hacker philosophy
"make mod => go fuck SoRR".

**Don Vecta** Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:31 am

BigDarsh wrote:That's so sad, first we have Serp who ask for a tiers list (which is a bit out of place, but still interresting) and then we have Serp who trash the mod tool as a small hacking feature release by a random guy.

This random guy is called BomberLink, a clever game designer who put many years of his life to make the best Streets of Rage ever to be made. A clever game designer that know that every game start to get old with time. So Bomberlink put a tool that permit to create new situations for his game in order to keep it fresh, and to permit to the community to have a decent life span.

That's why SoRMaker is limited, it's not because Bomberlink is narrowminded and want to trash the modders, but because he want that SoRMaker stay what it is : a life expander but not a hacking tool.

Why are there two modders that discuss the general strategy thread currently ? (Don Vecta and CajNatalie ). Because they care of the general strategy of the game while they make their mod, they care because they understand what is the very purpose of SoRMaker. Create new situations for Bomberlink's game, and not creating a new beat them up from the scratch.

A hacker just don't care about the game he rape, since he rape it to make something else.

That's why Mr Din says that some mods can be counted for the tiers list, they are mod of modders that care about this fucking game !

Modders that don't care about "BomberLink's SoRR general strategy" just don't understand what is SoRMaker and why BomberLink created it. They will try to make their own game and will complain that SoRMaker is limited since they think in the opposite way.

SoRMaker's philosophy
"Understand SoRR => make mod that highlight the game"
Hacker philosophy
"make mod => go fuck SoRR".

<3

**Saven** Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:24 pm

BigDarsh wrote:That's so sad, first we have Serp who ask for a tiers list (which is a bit out of place, but still interresting) and then we have Serp who trash the mod tool as a small hacking feature release by a random guy.

This random guy is called BomberLink, a clever game designer who put many years of his life to make the best Streets of Rage ever to be made. A clever game designer that know that every game start to get old with time. So Bomberlink put a tool that permit to create new situations for his game in order to keep it fresh, and to permit to the community to have a decent life span.

That's why SoRMaker is limited, it's not because Bomberlink is narrowminded and want to trash the modders, but because he want that SoRMaker stay what it is : a life expander but not a hacking tool.

Why are there two modders that discuss the general strategy thread currently ? (Don Vecta and CajNatalie ). Because they care of the general strategy of the game while they make their mod, they care because they understand what is the very purpose of SoRMaker. Create new situations for Bomberlink's game, and not creating a new beat them up from the scratch.

A hacker just don't care about the game he rape, since he rape it to make something else.

That's why Mr Din says that some mods can be counted for the tiers list, they are mod of modders that care about this fucking game !

Modders that don't care about "BomberLink's SoRR general strategy" just don't understand what is SoRMaker and why BomberLink created it. They will try to make their own game and will complain that SoRMaker is limited since they think in the opposite way.

SoRMaker's philosophy
"Understand SoRR => make mod that highlight the game"
Hacker philosophy
"make mod => go fuck SoRR".

General Character Discussion - Page 4 529e5eda166e3.preview-620

Mr.Din Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:10 pm

I feel as if there's 3 different conversations going on here.
-Tiers
-SoR Maker's limits
-Modders and their mods

But yes Big Darsh, that's what I'm getting at. Not every mod is made to highlight the game's engine, some mods are just made because the creator wanted to make something and when the latter happens it's likely some characters will fall short for stuff the mod creator didn't think or care to check/test/balance. That's too unstable of a foundation when trying to make a tier list.

I think what serp is trying to say (because I don't think he's trashing modding or mods) is that making ONE tier list that blankets both the main game and mods together may not be feasible because of the above mentioned, he suggested in an earlier post making separate tiers, one for the main game and others for mods, treating the mods as their own game so to speak. Much like you wouldn't use say Street Fighter 3 SI tier list for Street Fighter 3 3s.

BigDarsh Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:34 am

I have just understand that I was guilty by bringing the mess in the discussion. So I truly apologize for this.

The way I saw this whole discussion was that.

Tiers list is not interesting, but tiers list discussions are.
Tiers list discussion permit to highlight interresting stuff such as "who is better than who" in specific situations (from arena design, to boss battle).
Those debates can help modders to create new interresting situations in there mod (the very purpose of SoRMaker) and can help player to better understand the game.

All in all, I don't care about tiers list. The only thing I care, is bringing interresting intellectual material for the community which include Modders (that care about the game) and players (that care about the game).

So let's go further and why not start with the idea of Dark Thief which was :
"Who is weak against this boss and who is strong against this boss".

Those are pretty basic situations, but still a good basis to start.
What do you think people ?

serp Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:58 am

I'm not the one that asked for a tiers list, I'm the one that provided the tiers list when someone else asked.

And if you really want to discuss sticking mods into one overarching tier list, then yes, it is still just utterly, patently ridiculous. I don't know why you can't understand that. Mods are not the core game.

BigDarsh Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:42 am

Actually, you can try to make a tiers list using situations that are only in the "core game". It will not be as refined/sophisticated as a one that used the mods too since the core game lack of situations. The less situation you have, the more worthless is the tiers list, and the less interesting are the tiers list discussions.

I mean, the "50 shades of grey", is it the salt of life ?
If I Stick to the "core game", Black and white (and few stuff that seem to be grey between stage 4 and 6).

I will not say that sticking to the core game is patently ridiculous, I will just say that it is not very interesting to me.

But you know what ?
I don't play the core game for years and I truly apologize for blaming you to ask for the tiers list.

serp Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:52 am

BigDarsh wrote:Actually, you can try to make a tiers list using situations that are only in the "core game". It will not be as refined/sophisticated as a one that used the mods too since the core game lack of situations. The less situation you have, the more worthless is the tiers list, and the less interesting are the tiers list discussions.

I mean, the "50 shades of grey", is it the salt of life ?
If I Stick to the "core game", Black and white (and few stuff that seem to be grey between stage 4 and 6).

I will not say that sticking to the core game is patently ridiculous, I will just say that it is not very interesting to me.

But you know what ?
I don't play the core game for years and I truly apologize for blaming you to ask for the tiers list.

It's cool bro. It looks like we're just not going to agree on the mod vs. not tier listing. So there is just nothing to do but move on from that.

As for mistaking me asking for the tiers list, that looks like a non-issue too going forward. I admit I was a bit ticked about that.

I actually still play old games now. Just played KOF98 a bit earlier today, and I've also played games like 3S and A3 long after their releases. SOR2 I used to play a lot until just a couple of years ago with a friend online. For me if a game has fun gameplay and especially if I am playing with friends, it's just really enjoyable to me. I grew up playing a lot of these games as did a lot of other people, most of us have moved on in life and have little time to play new games, but it's still fun for us to fire up old games.

BigDarsh Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:36 am

Serp wrote:It's cool bro. It looks like we're just not going to agree on the mod vs. not tier listing. So there is just nothing to do but move on from that.

Exactly, glad we agree and understand each other !

I actually still play old games now. Just played KOF98 a bit earlier today, and I've also played games like 3S and A3 long after their releases. SOR2 I used to play a lot until just a couple of years ago with a friend online. For me if a game has fun gameplay and especially if I am playing with friends, it's just really enjoyable to me. I grew up playing a lot of these games as did a lot of other people, most of us have moved on in life and have little time to play new games, but it's still fun for us to fire up old games.

Exactly the same here. Alien vs Predator, Guardians, Sengoku 3 are my 3 most played Beat em up (aside from SoRR mods) and I play SF3.3, SFZero3, KoF98, Marvel vs Street Fighter and KoF2002 UM quite often.

The interesting subject you bring is this one :
Would I play the original AvP game if there were an "AvP Maker" that permit me to play new battle for this awesome beat em up ?
Not a crappy hack that does not respect the AvP game designer with a flaw stun system, a weird physics or such.

I comes up with the idea that I used to play a lot SoR2, but since SorRv5, I don't play it anymore. There were a lot of weird open BOR that does not respect the SoR game designers, but since Bomberlink released a real tribute to SoR that refresh it a lot, I very rarely play SoR2 by now. I prefer play SoR1 mod for v5, SoR2 mod for v5 and SoR3 mod for v5.

I has never think to this before, but you just enlight my own vision of video game with this discussion. Something that revolve around the concept of "fresh but respectful".

Thank you.

Mr.Din Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:14 pm

Let's not be quick to trash OBoR and hacks though. I've seen my share of equally disrespectful mods (and boy was playing through them hell). In any form of creative driven representation you're going to have people who don't care about the original intentions of the game versus ones who compliment/improve/expand/etc on them.

Back on topic though, fuck Ash! That stupid hop every two seconds! Evil or Very Mad

BigDarsh Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:01 pm

Yep, there are good hack, good MUGEN and good open BOR, just very hard to find, I assume if there were a good website that try to review and rank them as for official Beat them up / fighting game. This would help people to get courage to get into it and try to understand it. For example, Nightslashers X, it's Guardians melee mechanics using Nightslahers visual ressource. If I look at the game from the Nightslashers point of view, it is not vey good, but if I look from the Guardians point of view, it is descent thouhg unfinished.

Let's get back to the topic, regarding tiers, I think it's easy to start with the "black, white, grey" formula.

White
Max, Shiva 2/3, Skate 2, Rudra

Grey
Blaze 1/2/3, Axel 1/2/3, Adam, Mr.X, Elle, Zan

Black
Skate 3 (plus it's a tone down version of skate 2), Roo, Ash

I think Black and White is almost consensus while the Grey area should create a lot of debate since it is way harder to evalute the characters of this category. Elle, Zan Blaze 3 seems to shine "a lot" or "not that much" depending on how you light up the character with this or that situation.

Is Axel 3 better than Axel 2 in this situation ?
Is Blaze 2 is better than Blaze 1 in this situation ?

On a side note, Blaze 1 is very close to Shiva gameplay wise to me. She feels very similar to Shiva and very different of the others 2 Blaze. Actually, I think that Blaze 1 is a "balanced version" of Shivas, but it's pure opinion there.

The way I see the thing, there is 2 Blaze (Blaze 3 is balanced, Blaze 2 sacrifice a bit for power) and 3 Shiva (Shiva 3 is overpowered with a small speed advantage, Shiva 2 is overpowered with a small damage advantage, and Blaze 1 is the regular version of Shiva)

DarkThief Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:35 pm

BigDarsh wrote:So let's go further and why not start with the idea of Dark Thief which was :
"Who is weak against this boss and who is strong against this boss".

OK, I'll give it a go: (strong weak)

Skate 2 - All except Souther without 3-stars Souther without 3-stars
Max - All except Shiva/Abadede None
Rudra - All that require a jump None
Elle - All that require a jump Mona/Lisa, Onihime/Yasha
Shiva 2 - Shiva, Abadede None
Mr.X - None Shiva, Mona/Lisa, Onihime/Yasha
Blaze 2 - Shiva, Abadede None
Roo - All except Mr.X Mr.X
Ash - All that can't block except Abadede All that can block except Shiva
Zan - All except Mr.X with 3-stars Shiva, Abadede, All that require a jump
Adam - Bear, All that require a jump Shiva
Axel 2 - All that can't block Rush, All that can block

Some bosses are pushovers with any character, so those are left out. (so "none" means just the pushovers)

Again, no duplicates included here. (as I don't use them)

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