General Character Discussion

Glad to see my views on the stats weren't entirely too off! Reading through all your replies, I have an even better understanding of them, as well as being in agreement that new stats are much more appropriate.

Since Don Vecta already did the analysis for Rudra (and quite accurately), there's no need for me to add onto her stats since anything I'd say would basically repeat what has already been stated. Though I do use SoR1 Blaze (I seem to use her best out of the other three) and Adam, so perhaps I could do something for them as well. Though I'd probably be more close to correct with Blaze over Adam since I've main'd her in all the original games. I haven't exactly mastered either of them like I have with Rudra, so I might hold off for now. ^^;

Skate 2 stats (by DarkThief).

Damage Output: Surprising 4/5
Main combo sucks, but everything else rocks. His throws are way clear of everyone except Max, his jump kicks do more than anyone else, his blitzes are among the strongest and his forward+A special can take off 2/3 of a health bar (albeit difficult to use). Who'd have thought a little kid could hurt so much?

Reach: Baaaad 2/5
It's still possible to use the jab for a quick stun, but not recommended (even Roo is better at this due to his combo speed). His standing-A special is a bit weak on range, and his jump kick also comes up short against some enemies, especially kickboxers (which he loses priority against their jump kicks).  His blitz does help him a bit in the being-out-ranged department but he's still one of the worst characters in this area.

Safe move: Okay-ish 3/5
Vulnerable when standing still due to reach, but when moving there isn't too much to stop him.  His 0-1 star blitz can destroy most enemies with it's opening frame, although timing is key to avoid going too close to a mob that triggers an instant retaliation (and blockers can get through it as well). His 2-3 star blitzes are a bit more open to hits from behind, although if they're too late on the 3-star they get smashed (like Rudra).  Throws are pretty safe when not in the vicinity of bullets.

Air Game: Decent 4/5
The main jump kick has priority issues with kickboxers and the stun kick is awkward to use due to low priority but those are minor issues compared to the damage. Definitely one of the better characters in this department.

Throw Game: Striking 5/5
3 unconventional throws that all work really well, and also work against all enemies too (unless you try to neck throw a safe-lander which is kinda hard to do by accident). He can't knock large crowds over easily like most characters, but the neck throw is really flexible (since he can choose it's direction) and the roller kick/migraine punch can hit multiple enemies (which is where he makes up in the crowd control department).

Weapon Game: Average 3/5
Great with short weapons, and good solid knife/kunai blitz to boot. Rubbish with long weapons though, apart from his Matrix-esque pipe A-special. (which is handy for getting rid of pipes/bats safely)

Mobility: Dynamic 5/5
Fast walk, fast run and his basic blitzes all add up to a very quick manoevrable character, although he does have to keep moving or throwing to remain a step ahead.  Run and grab is more effective than anyone else (except maybe Ash).

All in All: He's certainly OP for a little kid compared to the grown-ups of the remake (although not in the original games) and he can destroy ninjas and most bosses like no other character could (except Max) but still takes a bit of skill and finesse to get the most out of him due to his major weakness.

DarkThief wrote:
Reach: Baaaad 1/5
It's still possible to use the jab for a quick stun, but not recommended (even Roo is better at this). His standing-A special is a bit weak on range, and his jump kick also comes up short against some enemies, especially kickboxers (which he loses priority against their jump kicks).  Definitely the worst character in this area.

On this point, might argue something to his favor.

While most of his standard game is total crap in the reach department, there's just one or two things that compensate everything: His Blitz attacks. Big big big shout out to Blitz-1, which has the fastest, longest range with full screen cross of the screen in less than a second: comes out fast, huge priority, huge damage (mainly the headbutt) and safe on landing (minus a very few frames on recovering).He can take out and Abadede's clothesline charge with ease!

I guess his blitz game gives him one point of reach, I'd put him on 2/5 unless you object with my opinion.

Magnus Blade wrote:Glad to see my views on the stats weren't entirely too off! Reading through all your replies, I have an even better understanding of them, as well as being in agreement that new stats are much more appropriate.

Yeah your stats pattern was a good step in the right direction to make the discussion go further; I appreciate that!

DarkThieves => I agree with Vecta about Reach. His jab is terrible, but it is not enough to make him have 1/5. I have a lot of problem when playing Axel2 because he lack of reach in every cluster. This is not the case of Skate which is a lot better (I use him from time to time just to remember how his Z-Axis and X-Axis Reach on his Blitz0/1 is HUGE in exemple )

Weapon Stats: I don't Know, 3/5 is okay but maybe 2/5 (I let you have the last words on this one, since it's purely opinion here and you have more experience than me with this character for sure!)

Don Vecta wrote:On this point, might argue something to his favor.

While most of his standard game is total crap in the reach department, there's just one or two things that compensate everything: His Blitz attacks.

I agree that moves overall should factor into how much reach a character has with attacks. Skate's got decent jump kick reach, his blitzes are actually better than Skate 3's are (especially when you look at the 2/3 star blitzes). Characters like Zan, Adam and Elle have blitzes that excel because of their insane reach.

Another point in Skate's favour that I'd say makes it easier for him to hit enemies is the fact that he can throw in either direction on a grab - the fact that his vault throw lets him throw enemies into each other more easily might be worth arguing as a point in his 'reach' game because he can more easily hit the enemies he wants to in any grab situation.

Okay, I edited Axel 2 Mobility Stats: 1/5 (decent walk/jump, but no "high mobility" attack in his moveset)

Here is my new output
Blaze 2 Stats
Damage Output: average 3/5
Jab 4 / Y ~10 / Blitz 40~48 / off special 44 / Jump in attack 12 (air chop)
String combo is 34~42! (regular value is 32); nice throws damage (32)
and nice Def Special Damage (24)

Reach:  (ability to land a move): average 3/5
jab, have average range, Y kick is terrible, but rear attack hit both front and behind.  
Blitz def special and off special have all good range

Safe move: average 3/5
her recovery on her blitz 0* 1* 2* 3* and off Special are very neat
As every SoR2 Character, she have a bit of lag while string comboing (compare to SoR3 Character)
plus it can be lots of hits (3 hits for the elbow, and up to two hits for the kick ender) which can add lag. Her def special has great range, very fast (safe) and good damage (24)

Air Game: good 4/5
In place Jump attack is high damage (24) and good reach. Her Jump Kick is high priority (not as good as Blaze 3 though) but low damage 8 (that's SoR2 Style!)
Jump kick have an excellent reach and her jumpin attack (flying chop) is one of the best of the game. Reach is good, nice precedence and damage (12)

Throw Game: Good 4/5
Toss is Judo Leg Throw (solide damage 32 and recovery) / Slam is suplex (solid damage 32 and recovery), plus she have a Bongo Throw with average damage (28) but not very safe.
She have the most solid (but not Broken) set of throw (Max outmatch her, but that's all).

Weapon Game: Average 3/5
Pipe swing is fast but has lower range than the regular one (horizontal swing)
Katana blitz has good damage and range but not very safe (lots of hits)
Knife Special is just great to be invincible to dodge, but very low reach damage, and not a good attack.
Knife Slash n Stab is interruptible by Donovan's jab even in pause delay SoR3. Yeah that's how it suck.

Mobility: good 4/5
Her walk/run are very good
Her jump and Hyper jump is great for plateforming
She does benefit of "high mobility attack" such as Blitz 2/3 to move.


All in All:
Blaze 2/3 are the most well rounded characters of the game. Blaze 2 is more unsafe, but do more damage. Blaze 3 tribute her damage for being safer (less lag, and recovery), and better crowd control (better jump kick 12 + more precedence) and a Kikousho Off Special (with a huge hitbox for locking pack of mob, with less damage too).

Feel free to feed back.

Time for a bump, with some new 5.1 flavours.

Now that it's been out for a bit, who do you think are the biggest winners and losers from the new patch? Personally I think Blaze (strongest against Shiva now), Elle (forward+A buff) and Ash (he can still throw Shiva/Rudra) have gained the most, with the ones who've lost out most are Mr.X (rolling nerf removes a key tactic) and Zan. (despite his buffed throws, he's the worst against Shiva because jump kicks and forward+A now rule the roost)

Sorry to bump a thread, but I decided to bring in some of my own input. Ran some tests and found a few interesting things. Not necessarily a pro either.

Axel 1
He's the character I prefer using because of his good ground game. He is also the middle-man between 2 and 3 in terms of power. His air game is poor, but he can be well-compensated with enough patience and coordination when fighting on the ground.

Damage Output: 3/5
He is no Max, but his attacks still can do some hard damage. 2 has him beat in overall damage, but his offensive special takes off half a lifebar. Combine that with the speed of move and you have his main weapon to finish combos. Compared to 3, Axel 1 is average.

Reach 3/5:
His jabs reach farther since he moves outward, but the only other move he has over 2 and 3 is his offensive special.

Safe move: 5/5
Shorter combos means faster recovery. You can easily take out about 75% of a bar with 3 jabs followed by an offensive special. His jab combo is also relatively quick and hits hard anyway.

Air Game: 1/5
Standing jump attack is just as fast as moving jump, but does slightly less damage. The knee press does enough damage to work with combos, however. He does rather poor damage overall, so unless you want to finish off an enemy with a dashing knee, you are better off sticking to weapons for anti-air purposes. (Recommend blades for run-attack)

Throw Game: 2/5
1 has the best suplex. However, in terms of damage and quickness it's usually just better to use the offensive special when available.

Weapon Game: 4/5
I find blades to be his best weapon, but I never liked using short-ranged weapons in BEUs to begin with; he's faster with swords anyway. Axel also gains a powerful swing with the sword. For crowd-control, bats/pipes will work a little better with his run attack making him move across the screen.

Mobility: 2/5
Axel was never a mobile character. Poor jumps, average speed, nothing really special. Blitz 2 and 3 help him move through enemies, but that's it. Again outclassed by 2 with the ability to move backwards during Grand Upper.

Overall
Having such a strong ground game and no air game means Axel will have to work a little harder. His weaknesses are not glaring when used properly. You'll need a little patience and experience to manipulate bosses such as Jet and Zamza to be in favorable situations for Axel 1 if you are without a ranged weapon.



Looking into this, Axel 2 is pretty powerful. Almost as if he was never touched from v4. 3 is just a weaker (and slightly faster) version of 2, and wasn't he supposed to be the powerhouse in his respective game? Axel 2's only weakness is in his weaker blitz moves. Then again, it's not a big problem. Thoughts?

Very Nice analysis, I share your opinion. Regarding your comment about Axel 3 and 2, I have to add something.

Note: 1 life bar = 96 HP.

Axel 3 has an invincible off special with average damage (36) while Axel 2 has a powerfull off special (more than 70!) but with vulnerability to attack from the rear, projectile and jump kick (hurtbox put on the back of the character).

So Axel 3 is the low damage axel, but he's the safest of them all. Plus he have a decent jump kick regarding damage compare to Axel 2 ( 12 vs 8 ) and better range than Axel 1. Jump kick is very important for boss battle by now.

I would conclude by this. SoR3 has lowered the overall damage of the game in this specific opus, and Axel is not really a powerhouse anymore (bad balance in this game) if you compare him to Blaze (which was mean't to be the "balanced type"). Bombergame just try to respect the value and property of each game so that's why he is like that. This said, Axel 3 is very pleasant to play in SoRR, even if it can be tedious against long life bosses.

PS:
Axel 1 : B,B,B blitz 2 * deals more damage than B,B,B off special.
His blitz 2* is the best of the 3 characters. 52 damage and quite safe , plus it don't cost you special so learning to use it make a real difference (saving your gauge for an extra action)

I was unaware of the hitbox on 2, but I did know that 3's jumpkick did more than 2. Seems fair enough for now. Anyway, I'll be posting notes on characters that will not be in the same fashion to provide a different insight on characters.

That stamina problem really bothers me too honestly.

BigDarsh wrote:Axel 2 has a powerfull off special (more than 70!) but with vulnerability to attack from the rear, projectile and jump kick (hurtbox put on the back of the character).

He can't be hit from the front at all, except by projectiles. (he counters jump kicks every time)

That stamina problem really bothers me too honestly.

Did anyone ever work out what stamina means?

Dark Thief wrote:He can't be hit from the front at all, except by projectiles. (he counters jump kicks every time)

I was pretty sure that Hakuo (sor1) can cross axel2 off special with his flying jump kick. This said, I can be wrong, long time no playing the game seriously. Thank you for correcting, always good to know.

Max's long-weapon swing is really supposed to have a 6-frame startup where the 1st animation frame is one of his stance sprites. They made it even better in Streets of Rage Remake?!

On the general topic of Max, I noticed they made his jumping backward slam (or grab) even more powerful. It does just about a full gauge, give or take a few hits. He's the first character I've used so far on Mania that I never had to go on even one continue for.

I have to say, though, the enemies don't make it easy on him. It's like they walk at 200 mph (or fps, give or take!), can change direction at will, and just love zooming behind to ransack you. However, Max's back attack is one of the more useful moves I've ever had a chance to perform, so he's once again proven his superiority. =D

Has anyone bothered to do some kind of a tier list or general character ranking list now that 5.1's out? I'm curious if anyone's opinions on characters have changed since the update.

bareknuckleroo wrote:Has anyone bothered to do some kind of a tier list or general character ranking list now that 5.1's out? I'm curious if anyone's opinions on characters have changed since the update.

SOR2 Skate is probably the best all around, any star level.
Max is right behind, maybe a little ahead with star level 3, but not as good below that.

Then it's probably another tier grouping, with SOR2 Axel, Rudra, Shiva (both are about the same), SOR1 Blaze, and probably X.

Then the tier after is probably both other Axels, Elle, both other Blazes, SOR3 Skate, Adam.

Then the remainder would probably be Zan, Roo. So to write it out:

S:    
SOR2 Skate
Max (3 star)

A+:  
SOR2 Axel
Rudra
Shiva (SOR2+SOR3)

A:   
Ash
Blaze (SOR1)
Mr. X

B:    
Axel (SOR1, SOR3)
Elle
Blaze (SOR2, SOR3)
Skate (SOR3)
Adam

C:    
Zan
Roo

I think that's all of them. I might bump a few of them around, maybe even add more tier groups. This is really for Mania, as the game is certainly easy enough below that to not really have any issue, and even on Mania with CPU partner you have a lot of room to work with. Mania is pretty tough without CPU partner though, can't say I like it much alone honestly. But I guess it's supposed to be that way.

Zan in bottom tier, wut, he is a speed and long reach demon, and he even got a few damage buffs in the latest version.

Roo isn't awful, I'd say SoR3 Skate is still the worst by a wide margin IMO because he's got that poor reach and an awful offensive special, and you can't reliably grab enemies in higher difficulties when they run around like crazy. Roo may be weak normally and have a pretty awful 0/1 star blitzes and specials, but he's actually got really strong 2 and 3 stars, a good throw, and THAT TAIL. It alone can trivialize a ridiculous number of the game's enemies. He's decidedly low tier because he's a bit gimmicky, but SoR3 Skate's still worse.

SoR2 Skate's decidedly better, great damage and a fantastic offensive special.

bareknuckleroo wrote:Zan in bottom tier, wut, he is a speed and long reach demon, and he even got a few damage buffs in the latest version.

Roo isn't awful, I'd say SoR3 Skate is still the worst by a wide margin IMO because he's got that poor reach and an awful offensive special, and you can't reliably grab enemies in higher difficulties when they run around like crazy. Roo may be weak normally and have a pretty awful 0/1 star blitzes and specials, but he's actually got really strong 2 and 3 stars, a good throw, and THAT TAIL. It alone can trivialize a ridiculous number of the game's enemies. He's decidedly low tier because he's a bit gimmicky, but SoR3 Skate's still worse.

SoR2 Skate's decidedly better, great damage and a fantastic offensive special.

I wonder if there's even an old tier list. I didn't actually see one. I can't really do a tier list just by myself though These things generally require a consensus to achieve, or at least some sort of agreement over multiple people. I just threw out the best I could on my own.

I edited it to try to make it a bit more readable too.

It also helps to note that I rank Blaze 3 as top tier, with Adam/Blaze 1 close after.
Experience with the characters gives a completely different perspective, so you'll never get a solid tierlist. =P

Interrestingly, I've made several attempt to do a tiers list for the several versions of the game, but as CajNatalie said, you can't do a perfect tiers list, especially in beat them up. Their versus counterpart (fighting games) have at least, theorical match up that help a lot and are much easier to establish.

In a beat them up with 64 opponents like SorRv5 involve multiple type of combinations along with weapon and collision maps. All of this make the chart undoable, all you can have is " a big picture".

This said, I think you've got the global picture of an hypothetical tiers list, though I agree with message above about Skate 3 being the "Roll Tiers"' (MvC2) and that Blaze 3 is way superior than Blaze 1. At least superior than others one, especially Blaze 2.

Blaze 3
Blaze 3 is top tier because she is the most balanced character of the whole game, and if you look closely at every game cluster, she is pretty well equiped. walk/run speed, bongo throw, toss, slam, range, jump, jump kick, off special (my god that off special !), def special etc.

She has no real con and that's what make her high tiers. Even Rudra (which is stronger than her in my opinion) has cons such has terrible jump in attack (knee with no range) and a bad toss regarding crow control. Blaze 3 shine here, as everywhere else.

Blaze 2 is well placed in your list, she is more sluggish/laggish though more powerfull in raw damage. And she does not have that crazy off special.

Regarding Axel 2; I just don't understand why is so high.
It is my main Character since the first version and he's not bad. But I think even Blaze 2 is just better than him. He has great damage yes and a good blitz2 (Axel 1 has better off special and Blitz 2 by the way), but Axel 2 is slow, plateforming is a chore, he has a weak jump kick (both damage and range due to his jump curve, running jump kick is needed sometime just for precedence issue...), his slam has lag recovery (Axel 3 a bit more) and he has no range with is jab and the list goes on. He can't be A tiers, that just too much against him.

He's good (B), but not great (A). To make it short. Blaze 1, Adam and Blaze 2 are just better than him overall.

My list would be

S
Max, Shiva2/3
Skate2, Rudra

A
Blaze3, Mr X
Blaze 1, Adam

B
Blaze 2, Axel 2, Axel 1, Axel 3, Zan
Note: Zan can be A, is just so boring to play that it can make you sleepy, and do shit.

C
Ash,Roo
Skate 3

I don't know about Elle maybe B tiers.

Elle is definitely not lower tier, especially since 5.1 (her one and only weakness is lack of a slam, otherwise she has it all covered)

My tiers tend to look like this:

1 - Skate 2, Max
2 - Rudra, Elle
3 - Shiva 2, X
4 - Blaze 2, Roo
5 - Zan, Ash
6 - Adam, Axel 2

This is perhaps a bit more opinionated, based on my own skills/experiences with them. (eg. Roo and Zan are a bit higher due to having learned them better, whereas Adam just feels like a brick to me so he's down the bottom with Mr. Vulnerable who can't escape...despite having learned him better)

I also don't use multiple versions, so they're not listed. (if they were I'd have Shiva/Blaze 3 below 2 but not much, Axel/Skate 3 waaay adrift at the bottom and Axel/Blaze 1 unknown)

She has no real con and that's what make her high tiers.

Just the low damage and reach, plus the multi-hit fireball (which is a huge downer given how Shiva/Abadede are now). The only thing she has over Blaze 2 is the regular fly-kick doing 50% more damage.

My tier list:

S rank: Max, Shiva 3
A rank: Rudra, Eddie 2, Shiva 2, Blaze 3
B rank: Axel 1, Elle, X, Zan, Adam
C rank: Axel 2, Blaze 1, Blaze 2
D rank: Axel 3, Ash, Roo, Eddie 3

Just like the other players, it's based on own experience, watching walkthroughs and analyzing stats like damage, reach, fun factor, teamwork, speed, etc.

Yeah, added "teamwork" for the CPU patnah... sometimes the character plays like S-H-I-T even if potentially can be a good player, but an awful partner.

BTW, it's odd that some peoplefind Zan boring, I really like him now better as his damage is increased...and has fun stuff with weapons and his fireball, hehe.

IIRC, SOR2 Axel's blitz attack has higher priority than the other Axels, his hold B also has higher priority and hits twice, and is good to control an entire side because of knockdown properties, and his fwd+A special does tremendous damage and of course can combo off of jabs or grabs and knees (and his jabs are very good too). This is on top of tremendous damage overall. Bombergames kept in a lot of SOR2 Axel's unique quirks and timings. The hold B attack especially off of a full standing combo is an extremely effective tool.

His weakness is jump and move speed. Outside of platforming it's not too big of a deal though, outside of Skate nobody can really chase enemies down and it's more a matter of controlling angles and space. There's little need to jump attack and most enemies do dodge it or beat it anyway (also does so little damage that you would have trouble with the timer).

I had forgotten Ash. I'd probably stick him in the A/A+ range. I went through one playthrough where I decided to finish every boss with Ash's police special. So the Screens of Rage became the Screens of Love. I actually encourage people to try it out, it is really funny looking as it gets a special effect. Looks quite cinematic haha.

Now I do think solo vs. team (even comp) as well as difficulty make a difference. Axel2 does have some serious issues pure solo especially in some stages. When there are too many enemies flying in from both sides he has some big issues. But a lot of characters struggle in the same situations. That's why Max and Skate are generally higher than everyone else, they have the least issues.

Ash is a fun (but incredibly hard) character to play. He has some badass moves (his blitzes are great), the thing i hate most from him, though, is that damn recoil jump that he has from plenty of his moves, that's so damn annoying!

I personally believe tiers don't belong in beat em ups. outside obvious stuff like Max/Shiva being god tier it all really boils down to the player. a Streets of Rage fighter would be cool though, I'd take it over the duel mode that felt shoehorned in since SoR2.